33 replies to this topic

[wishface]

What do you need to do to win. I can't seem to do it. To me they seem too slow, and lacking in enough support. Having to rely on your walkers to build and fight seems entirely fraught, and I find their biggest weakness is the Reaper Drones which wander around the battlefield and thus into trouble. They also lack decent air units; the saucers are slow. Nufai is a very weak hero whereas Mirabel is awesome: strong and agile. It's also hard to build strong walkers because you need to specialise in a single tech which might well not benefit your army. For instance without Mutagen 4, your science walkers are fairly weak. Because of this, they are too vulnerable.

So what am I doing wrong?

Also I noticed in a skirmish against AI Novus that within the duration it took me to charge my superweapon they used theirs three times! That can't be right!

[bluefur87]

First off, yea, H are currently the weakest faction.  But you can still play with them well.

It sounds like you are only looking in to the Mutagen Branch, consider diversifying your techs.  Nufai isn't meant to be strong, he can take down entire armies with his specials if you use him right and your opponent is neglegent.  Mind walkers are FAR mor fearsome in battle then Rad walkers, Rad walkers are essentially a one shot mega weapon and have their time and place, but mind is better more often.  Also, Never forget map reveal, not to usefull in 1 v 1, but quite strong in 2 v 2.  Now then, you are correct that reapers are H's major weakness, they are easey targets, and cost alot, and several other things.  So you must protect them with turrets and maybe even a walker, you can do plenty of damage with units.  You must also seek to controll the map, not just as H, but as all races.  Much of the game can be decided by that.  Some hints a tricks with H include microing reapers to get insta's, useing lost ones with phase + plasma bombs, and qauntum three assembly walker with armor on top and foo cores on the bottem (stomper walker) to just run over your opponent's base.  There's more, but hey, have fun finding it.

I assume you mean they used their EMP wave three times?  Not sure it's releation to the Matter Conduit, but it should be about 2 times.  Maybe it's faster then I remember, or maybe it was charged when you built yours.

[JAGX]

WHAT!?  

I'm sorry, but the H is certainly not the weakest faction.  

In fact, I think they are the most powerful faction (especially on smaller maps and maps with instagrabs) with N coming in a close second.  I can understand N being considered strong because of Mirabel, but how could you say H is weaker than M?

When I go into MM, I pray for M opponents just so I can see if anyone can use them effectively (and they are so predictable too, the figment or inquisitor attacks, please).

Anyways, as a rule of thumb, pump economy fast then focus on walkers (risky, but it works) and always always ALWAYS research the bottom 3 tech suites first.

This will get you:

50% stronger hard points
Kamal Rex (beastly abduction ability practically negates half of an enemy army)
phase tanks

I don't know how one could lose with such assets?

[Strategist]

wishface, on Jun 21 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

Nufai is a very weak hero whereas Mirabel is awesome: strong and agile.

Part of that stems from Nufai being a stealth hero (Like Vertigo or Zessus) and Mirable being an Assault Hero (like Orlok or Charos, but she is faster than either of them).

Nufai works best against vehicles as he becomes immune to damage while attacking one. Nufai also works well at supporting walkers as his abilities allow for him to bring aircraft down to the ground so all units can fire on them and also cause the enemy to fight with one another (very useful while attacking the enemy's base).

wishface, on Jun 21 2008, 03:45 PM, said:

It's also hard to build strong walkers because you need to specialise in a single tech which might well not benefit your army. For instance without Mutagen 4, your science walkers are fairly weak. Because of this, they are too vulnerable.

Actually, Quantum-4 makes for the best Science walkers as they have Targeting Jammer Hardpoints  (which render the walker unable to be targeted) and Mind Control Hardpoints plus Molecular Armor (which increases Hardpoint durability).


As for research:

The Assault Branch favors Assault Assembly walkers (Mass Drivers, Beam Cannons, and walker speed increase), bombardment (Visual Optimizers+ Orlok's Siege mode and/or Range Enhancer) and also provides upgrades for all Hierarchy infantry (Grunts: Plasma Grenades. Lost-ones: Plasma Bombs, and Brutes: Death from Above) and also upgrades Saucers so they will deal more damage.
Units that work very well with this branch
Grunts
Lost-ones
Brutes (if available)
Saucers
Assembly walker



The Mutagen branch provides mostly unit upgrades (such as Irradiated Shots for most units  and Advanced Mutagens for Defilers) and also provides two siege breakers: Brutes (one use of their Charge ability will destroy a normal turret and they auto-heal) and the Radiation Cascade Super Weapon (You can reduce it's cooldown with Weapon Accelerators and Increase it's destructive potential with Range Enhancers)
Units that work very well with this branch
Any Hierarchy Infantry
Defilers
Phase Tank
Habitat Walker
Science Walker



The Quantum branch provides various upgrades (Phase for Monoliths and Lost-ones, Fast Ordering for Glyph Carvers, Quantum Ordnance for all Plasma weapons est.) and eventually provides very nasty Mind and Machine Magnets for the science walker.
Units that work very well with this branch
Lost-ones
Grunts
Phase Tanks
All Walkers.

Edited by The Stratigest, 23 June 2008 - 10:51 AM.

[JAGX]

I think the Mutagen branch sucks though.  I'd rather have stong hard points or see the whole map vs having to walk a slow Sci walker to the enemies base and charge it up and then fire...  If the enemy is a noob and doesn't scout this may work, but then the game would be over already.

[Strategist]

JAGX, on Jun 23 2008, 03:06 PM, said:

I think the Mutagen branch sucks though.  I'd rather have stong hard points or see the whole map vs having to walk a slow Sci walker to the enemies base and charge it up and then fire...  If the enemy is a noob and doesn't scout this may work, but then the game would be over already.

I myself think the full Mutagen branch (1-4) works best against Masari as they naturally turtle, while researching up to Mutagen 2 works well against Novus as their RD turrets are useless against Brutes and Brutes also have the benifit of being immune to Viruses and Hackers.

It really depends on how you perfer to play, the Mutagen Branch favors using your units (For example: Defilers gain better firepower and the ability to turn dead infantry into slaves with Mutagen-3) while not affecting walkers as much as the other two branches.

Edited by The Stratigest, 23 June 2008 - 03:22 PM.

[JAGX]

The Stratigest, on Jun 23 2008, 04:22 PM, said:

I myself think the full Mutagen branch (1-4) works best against Masari as they naturally turtle, while researching up to Mutagen 2 works well against Novus as their RD turrets are useless against Brutes and Brutes also have the benifit of being immune to Viruses and Hackers.

It really depends on how you perfer to play, the Mutagen Branch favors using your units (For example: Defilers gain better firepower and the ability to turn dead infantry into slaves with Mutagen-3) while not affecting walkers as much as the other two branches.

IDK maybe if it wasn't a tech 4 ability, and making slaves last longer?  That's a pathetic suite 3 tech, it should be suite 1.

[Strategist]

JAGX, on Jun 26 2008, 09:39 AM, said:

1. IDK maybe if it wasn't a tech 4 ability, 2. and making slaves last longer?  That's a pathetic suite 3 tech, it should be suite 1.

1. The Radiation Cascasde levels everything in it's wake (even the command centers, something all other superweapons can not destroy) and also has the benifit of being able to have it's range and cooldown ajusted via the hardpoints.

2. It also make all infantry (dead or alive, Human, Masari or even Hierarchy) mutate into slaves if they are in radiation or had been irradated before death (I've mutated dead Brutes with it).

The Gamma Radiation also increases the damage per second of all radiation weapons, making it useful against Mirable as she will take more damage from being hit and will continue to take damage afterwards.

[Kelathin]

JAGX, on Jun 21 2008, 04:40 PM, said:

WHAT!?  

I'm sorry, but the H is certainly not the weakest faction.  

In fact, I think they are the most powerful faction (especially on smaller maps and maps with instagrabs) with N coming in a close second.  I can understand N being considered strong because of Mirabel, but how could you say H is weaker than M?

When I go into MM, I pray for M opponents just so I can see if anyone can use them effectively (and they are so predictable too, the figment or inquisitor attacks, please).

Anyways, as a rule of thumb, pump economy fast then focus on walkers (risky, but it works) and always always ALWAYS research the bottom 3 tech suites first.

This will get you:

50% stronger hard points
Kamal Rex (beastly abduction ability practically negates half of an enemy army)
phase tanks

I don't know how one could lose with such assets?

Production wise, haven't we been over this already

You can only produce 1-3 unit types at any given time. You can only produce 3-9 units at a given moment where other factions can produce 3-16.

Plenty of strategies revolve around not using quantum branch. I personally like kamal, but getting vis ops against hierarchy opponents is far more effective than quantum branch.

[JAGX]

Kelathin, on Jun 26 2008, 03:51 PM, said:

Production wise, haven't we been over this already

You can only produce 1-3 unit types at any given time. You can only produce 3-9 units at a given moment where other factions can produce 3-16.

Plenty of strategies revolve around not using quantum branch. I personally like kamal, but getting vis ops against hierarchy opponents is far more effective than quantum branch.

Or you could just scout like every other faction.

Besides, it's not like you can afford to produce more than 9 H units at a time anyways.  They are the most expensive in the game (and yaya I know about cost optimizers, but those are inflexible and are inferior or N/M economy buff techs) and you reach pop cap easily.

I say boost the economy a tad, that way you could sustain perhaps two walkers producing and still manage to tech/build heros/beef walker.  I'm probably one of the best H players out there, and teching/expandind/upgrading beats spamming grunts most of the time anyways.  H don't need the ability to produce more low-tier units (not that they could afford it) they need a mid-late game boost to go toe-to-toe with the Masari infinite economy and the N in-base eceonomy.

Edited by JAGX, 26 June 2008 - 09:27 PM.

[Scyth3s]

Konan, on Jun 27 2008, 07:25 AM, said:

i read the title and thought "how CAN'T you win with hierarchy?"

there the most powerful race in the game, and the best game winners, a good h player can beat a better novus, just for the race he picked, early game they rule.

Completely untrue. A fast acting Novus player can stop almost any kind of H rush (variants pwn grunts, and lost ones, they pwn glyphs and carvers, and 3 or so will pwn reapers), don't know about a Masari player though.

[Kelathin]

Scyth3s, on Jul 17 2008, 11:35 PM, said:

Completely untrue. A fast acting Novus player can stop almost any kind of H rush (variants pwn grunts, and lost ones, they pwn glyphs and carvers, and 3 or so will pwn reapers), don't know about a Masari player though.

Really now? Defiler rush beats all Novus. Insta maps defiler rush are better then anything Novus can produce. Corruptors don't do enough damage. they do awesome damage against Mirabel, they own ohms and hackers, and variants and Ams.

[Strategist]

Kelathin, on Jul 18 2008, 01:06 AM, said:

Really now? Defiler rush beats all Novus.

I thought that was fixed? (5 pocap means that you can have 12 Defilers 7 Reaper Drones and one Glyph Carver)

[bluefur87]

The Stratigest, on Jul 17 2008, 11:33 PM, said:

I thought that was fixed? (5 pocap means that you can have 12 Defilers 7 Reaper Drones and one Glyph Carver)

Means little when 3-6 will rip through an early Novus base.  They have no early game counter to def, The best they got are Field Inverters, Amps, and Mirabel/Viktor.  And Mira won't stop them enough to keep them from destroying the N player's base (Def are pretty good at killing her so she'll have to run away for most of the assault anyways)  Leaving the best early game option to build many bases and hope one lives while you can kill the H player's infastructure.

[Scyth3s]

bluefur87, on Jul 18 2008, 05:21 AM, said:

Means little when 3-6 will rip through an early Novus base.  They have no early game counter to def, The best they got are Field Inverters, Amps, and Mirabel/Viktor.  And Mira won't stop them enough to keep them from destroying the N player's base (Def are pretty good at killing her so she'll have to run away for most of the assault anyways)  Leaving the best early game option to build many bases and hope one lives while you can kill the H player's infastructure.

In a ranked game, I have NEVER had a player drop an early assembly walker (I destroy the det. drone then the glyph if its actually there). In other words, I've never been defiler rushed.

If your enemy goes straight for an assembly walker, I've already seized the advantage.

[Strategist]

Scyth3s, on Jul 18 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

If your enemy goes straight for an assembly walker, I've already seized the advantage.

The Assembly walker is cheaper than the Habitat to upgrade for combat and it is by far more durable. The only downside to an Assembly walker is it's units are much more expecive than those of the Habitat and it has to be dedicated to Production to make a good army. (It only requires a Reaper Drone, so if your opponent has a Detection Drone early on they are wasting resources)

[Purified]

Also, most def rushes involve the def walker itself coming at you, so it's highly unlikely you'll find the walker in their base.   It'll probably come at you from the side backed by about 3-6 defs.

Edited by Purified, 18 July 2008 - 01:17 PM.

[Kelathin]

Scyth3s, on Jul 18 2008, 11:05 AM, said:

In a ranked game, I have NEVER had a player drop an early assembly walker (I destroy the det. drone then the glyph if its actually there). In other words, I've never been defiler rushed.

If your enemy goes straight for an assembly walker, I've already seized the advantage.

Ranked games are played my mostly xboxers and they use habitat grunt/lost one rushes mostly. You should know from custom games played with PC players we tend to use assembly walkers and most of us can pull them off fairly well.
landing an assembly can be done just as quickly as a habitat too

[Scyth3s]

Kelathin, on Jul 18 2008, 01:39 PM, said:

Ranked games are played my mostly xboxers and they use habitat grunt/lost one rushes mostly. You should know from custom games played with PC players we tend to use assembly walkers and most of us can pull them off fairly well.
landing an assembly can be done just as quickly as a habitat too

Aside from that game where my 2 teammates sucked and I was playing against you and Pure (or maybe it was blue), I've never been assembly rushed in a custom game either. Assembly walkers take longer to call down due to the Detection Drone pre-requisite so it gives me time to destroy the glyph. No glyph=no walker. No walker=no defilers.

If a Novus player (in 1v1 at least) gets defiler rushed its his own fault for acting slowly and not harassing/reconning. I can't say for Masari though since I don't play them.

Edited by Scyth3s, 18 July 2008 - 11:43 PM.