55 replies to this topic

[Purified]

Vod's macro has yet to wow me actually. (it's not awful either)

I don't really think U@W is that much of a macro game. You can only make so much production/resource collectors.    Also resources are generally spread all over the place, and of far less worry about extinguishing/expanding to.

The best example of macro I've heard/seen in the game would be the conq crushing counter in M mirrors, which involves clustering buildings so that conqs can't crush archs.

Other than that, expanding (which is present in every rts game..) is the main macro.

SC, for known reasons, emphasizes macro a lot better than U@W.

Edited by Purified, 19 March 2010 - 12:09 AM.

[volcaniclostone]

Saphri, on 18 March 2010 - 11:42 PM, said:

no it doesnt and your statement doesnt make any sense.  "reflex" haha funny stuff ;p

if you lose because you have never seen a certain unit in the game before and therefore you dont know what the heck counters it, that has nothing to do with macro or micro.  its a matter of education, not execution.  that is a different category of problem.  macro has to do with timely unit production, eco/building management, and unit placement.  i think that vOdtoast is even the best at that.

So you noticed

In simple terms we base our strategy on our resources well I do anyway, I’m sorry to say but if he lost due to a unit where he hasn't seen it before. That is pretty sad. In fact he should be some where in the 10000000000 rank. Don’t forget to perform the mags u need at least 11000 resources which is quite hard to pull off with H and I would know. For Jaq to pull it of is impressive that is macro not micro

[Valdez]

Purified, on 18 March 2010 - 11:55 PM, said:

I don't really think U@W is that much of a macro game. You can only make so much production/resource collectors.    Also resources are generally spread all over the place, and of far less worry about extinguishing/expanding to.

Plus also they had the whole automation thing IIRC. Novus and Hierarchy collectors had autopilot features so you just needed to make sure Reapers don't wander into hotspots and Collector drones get the flow network pathways for travel and it's good to go. Masari just prints money continually so...

[vOdToasT]

AlexRuiz, on 18 March 2010 - 09:55 PM, said:

Hey Volc, I already replied to him in another thread. I am looking forward of being "whooped" by him. I must admit however that he knows how to get attention, and maybe that is what he is craving...

Hey Vod, in the thread of the best player, while Saphri said it was you, you noticed I didn't. I am not ready to crown you for a while and you know why. While you have probably the most natural skill of us all, you are still learning a lot of tricks. When we play custom, is also to share tricks and strategies. We post replays not only to show good games, but also to show strategies and counters. We also share the tricks and counters to almost any strat in game. If you had watched a few of our replays, you would have figured out how Pur counters mag walkers. It is even hilarious see them become a non factor. I even told you to be aware if you go heavy in ohms of units that will render them useless.

Download some of the replays and watch them. Pur, Volc and myself even comment on them and point to good and bad things. Play more custom with us. Your style was surprising to us as your micro is amazing, but you have discovered it is only a part of the puzzle.

We post our replays to help the players become better, learn form the mistakes. As example, I will post a custom game that we had as 3 vs 3 (rogueslicer, Saphri and you vs UAW novus, Vic and me) The game was effectively a 2 vs 2, as 2 players didn't do a lot. You played as you do always, but you discovered quickly of how the right units are needed. Despite the fact that I had a powerful and proper army, I barely made damage to your units as Vic was killing them so fast I couldn't even get a share of the action. He had the right units for what you had, so he was having no trouble killing your units despite your superior numbers.

Regarding "everybody's friend" I am sure he will show up. His ego and need for attention won't let him avoid it. He won't risk his ranked spot as I am sure we will play as conquer the world against him. What I don't know is how many loses it will take for him to stop showing up, I mean, to decide you are no longer worthy of a match against him, I was excited that he joined to play as I had respect for him. Now I am excited for the "whooping" I'll get

So, people attending, get ready. If "everybody's friend" plays his best faction (as I am sure he will) he always goes quantum research first + assy. Plan to see the stuff of that branch early, but be alert as he can change.

Vod, watch some replays, you will need all the tricks. Ask Pur, Volc or me any question.
We play to have a blast, and to have a blast good players are needed, so we always share tricks. I know I will play some skirmishes to get familiar with the maps. That is the only downside of custom, there are maps don't play so we barely know them.



Alex
PS. popcorn, lawnchair, pop... what am I missing?

Yep, I've only had the game for about two months now. Of course I can't know everything yet.

Oh, and about macro management and micro management - macro management means large scale management ( as macro means large ), so you could say that it was my macro that failed when I saw a science walker for the first time, since it was my " large scale management " that failed. On the other hand, you could argue that it wasn't my MANAGEMENT that failed. I executed what I did decently, I just chose to execute the wrong thing.

It's a matter of definition.

Seriously though, macro management = large scale management, and while I can see why not knowing how to counter a science walker MAKES my macro bad (making the wrong the wrong units = bad macro), but the core of the problem does not LIE in my macro. My macro management skill in itself isn't bad. So yes, it made my macro bad, but it doesn't mean my macro IS bad.

If that makes any sense.

Edited by vOdToasT, 19 March 2010 - 09:38 AM.

[JAGX]

AlexRuiz, on 18 March 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

You got some little facts wrong here... We haven't crowned Vod as the best of us, and we won't in a while. He has the best micro around, and probably the most natural talent, as you admitted yourself, but you also showed that knowledge of the game, units and tactics matter even more. By beating Vod, you in fact proved a point Volc and I have been making all along: macro >> micro

The good news for Vod is that good macro is given with experience and knowledge, so he will get it.

We are so full of it? Probably, but no more than you. The players of old school were good, we have never denied it. However, like many other things, the situations evolve. The old schools tactics are learned, and improved.

Furthermore, because we "mid age" players play only custom, we didn't learn that there was this hot shot new player slicing through the ranks like butter until like a month ago... that should tell you how much we care about the "hard earned victories in ranked"  

Well I haven't observed too many improvements on tactics since I play on and off and nothing seems to beat the time-tested old stuff... proof is in the pudding for me.

And if you guys don't care about ranked or care about seeing who is best, why focus on getting all tripped over dashboarding and the like?  Why has Vod said he wants to take No.1 spot for 'justice?'  Must mean something...

Saphri, on 18 March 2010 - 10:38 PM, said:

tournaments are where it matters, and vOdtoast has yet to be beaten in a uaw tournament so i will say he is the best.  if anyone else shows up and wins the tournament, i will be open to changing my opinion on this.  he has done a lot for uaw in the short time he has been in the community.  he raises awareness about the game on other gaming forums, writes helpful articles, started weekly tournaments, and inspired more players to get into it.  even his girlfriend plays the game now ;p

he also got into an ugly fight with the ceo of gamereplays.org because the guy didnt want uaw on his site.

So multiple 1v1 games are somehow equal to or greater than a tournament?  Riiiiiight...  If your focus is between one or two or three players, I would say 1v1 is the way to go, because even if A beats B, but B beats C, it doesn't necessarily mean that A will beat C.  I think if A beats B,C, and the rest of the alphabet (which is why I actively look for good opponents) it is more telling.  I can't remember the last time I played Purified, but I do remember he was pretty good in his own way also.  I'll have to go find the replay to see what faction he was, but I think it was on Eastern Europe.  Another close game, but I vividly remember playing Kelathin, who always got me once and a while--those games were frickin' intense!

Anyways, I would differentiate Macro and over Strategy.  While Micro is important, it is heavily biased in favor of PC, but it can be compensated for if the difference in Macro and/or strategy is great enough, otherwise, all things being equal, PC players should win in RTS games.  Best Micro player I ever saw was trm Leprechaun.  He's on the 3rd page or something now, but he excelled in games like C&C because of his mad micro abilities, he plays pc now.

Edited by JAGX, 19 March 2010 - 05:55 PM.

[vOdToasT]

I think the only race Xbox players can match PC players with is Hierarchy.

[JAGX]

vOdToasT, on 19 March 2010 - 06:11 PM, said:

I think the only race Xbox players can match PC players with is Hierarchy.

In micro use, KB + M has an advantage even there, but there is a bit less micro so it isn't as pronounced.

But if you are talking about UaW overall, then that doesn't explain why some 360 users are able to best some PC users, even with that inherent disadvantage (along with not being able to tell what race your opponent is).

[vOdToasT]

JAGX, on 19 March 2010 - 07:48 PM, said:

In micro use, KB + M has an advantage even there, but there is a bit less micro so it isn't as pronounced.

But if you are talking about UaW overall, then that doesn't explain why some 360 users are able to best some PC users, even with that inherent disadvantage (along with not being able to tell what race your opponent is).

You can't open the menu to see their race in automatch on the xbox?

wow that's pretty broken. I'm telling my race to any xbox player in automatch from now on...

[AlexRuiz]

vOdToasT, on 19 March 2010 - 07:51 PM, said:

You can't open the menu to see their race in automatch on the xbox?

wow that's pretty broken. I'm telling my race to any xbox player in automatch from now on...

In all my my matches I had in conquer the world against Xbox players I always did that. The very few games I had in ranked against xbox players I did also.

[AlexRuiz]

Oh, for the macro vs micro, while I still don't agree, I'll accept it.
So, the consensus seems to be:

Micro: Ability to control and switch from individual units very fast.
Macro: Economy and production management
Tactic: Short term plan of action or decision as far as units mix, expansion, defense, etc (make lost ones, build a rec center next to that res pile, etc)
Strategy: Long term plan of action (go air with inquisitor as opposed to ground, go viral branch to slow down enemy, etc)

On a side note, good to see civility returned.
Let's have a blast tomorrow guys!

Edited by AlexRuiz, 19 March 2010 - 08:26 PM.

[vOdToasT]

Macro and micro management litteraly mean large scale and small scale management. I believe macro and micro are latin words.

Oh and Purified, about UaW not being that much of a macro game, you could say that. It was designed to have a dynamic macro game (unlike a game like WarCraft II, which has a very linear macro game) that would fluxate, go up, go down, appear in waves, and so on. The population cap being set at 90 is the main reason for this, I think.

Edited by vOdToasT, 19 March 2010 - 08:36 PM.

[JAGX]

vOdToasT, on 19 March 2010 - 07:51 PM, said:

You can't open the menu to see their race in automatch on the xbox?

wow that's pretty broken. I'm telling my race to any xbox player in automatch from now on...

Yea, so will that be a rule in the tournament as well, that players must announce races in order to ensure fairness?

Also, what info exactly is displayed in your PC menu?  Any info/stats?  Screen shot?

I would normally play on Fastest setting if it were console vs console, but I feel that faster speeds would exacerbate PC vs console incongruities...

[AlexRuiz]

JAGX, on 19 March 2010 - 10:52 PM, said:

Yea, so will that be a rule in the tournament as well, that players must announce races in order to ensure fairness?

Also, what info exactly is displayed in your PC menu?  Any info/stats?  Screen shot?

I would normally play on Fastest setting if it were console vs console, but I feel that faster speeds would exacerbate PC vs console incongruities...

That should be a rule, you are right.

The tab key shows gamertag, faction, ping and fps. There is also resources, but that shows only the resources of teammates in team games.

[JAGX]

And what do we do about genuine desync errors?

And also what about large team maps where people were meant to spawn next to their allies, in Xbox vs PC it's noquer the world only, so I think the match should be remade until each person spawns on a different side of the map (lest you spawn literally on top of your opponent, which would be lame...)

And I personally think discussing your opponents and/or posting replays of tournament games before it's over should be disallowed.

Edited by JAGX, 20 March 2010 - 10:37 AM.

[Valdez]

vOdToasT, on 19 March 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

I believe macro and micro are latin words.

It's Greek...

AlexRuiz, on 19 March 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

So, the consensus seems to be:

Micro: Ability to control and switch from individual units very fast.
Macro: Economy and production management
Tactic: Short term plan of action or decision as far as units mix, expansion, defense, etc (make lost ones, build a rec center next to that res pile, etc)
Strategy: Long term plan of action (go air with inquisitor as opposed to ground, go viral branch to slow down enemy, etc)

In the RTS context, even "long" and "short" term are pretty open to debate. In fact most RTS players I encountered simply used the term "strategy" to refer to everything that involves planning and execution, regardless of the time frame, since in RTS battles can sometimes be resolved very fast depending on how players play.

Edited by Valdez, 20 March 2010 - 09:01 AM.

[omgwtfz0r]

and yet its a cool game and some how we restarted the discussion here in the forums wich is fun to see

/edit

vodtoast is the best player out there atm. next to saphri i happaned to watch some games between them ... i just tell ya WTF ! UaW at its best

Edited by omgwtfz0r, 26 March 2010 - 03:58 AM.