57 replies to this topic

[volcaniclostone]

Well i started reading posts on gamereplays and I do have to agree with VB4 Novus are Op with FIs well when they r surrounded with Hackers.

I also have to agree with Vb4 that the game is inbalanced.

[Strategist]

I'm not sure, as Masari and Hierarchy both have ways to negate that (H Nufai + Brutes with DFA and M Dark Figments + Disciples or similar anti-armor).

[Auron_Kast]

It's counterable I believe, I know for sure that FIs and hackers alone can't win most matchups.

Edited by Auron_Kast, 15 April 2010 - 11:53 AM.

[volcaniclostone]

ohh yeah i agree with the posts above FIs and hackers are counterable but to pull it off takes skill and time.
Novus excels in speed and in good use in micro they are the strongest faction by far. Brutes are good vs Novus but its very costly and a very risky to go with them. You would atleast need 2 walkers to pull it of. One walker used as a production facility while the other acts as an ofensive strike force. Not to mention brutes are pretty useless untill death from above is researched in another words you need to research 4 times. I would personally go with mags where it is lot more effective and cheaper.

Time is a big factor too, while Novus can out run their opposition they also have more technical choices, such as blades, tanks and obs just to name a few which are very deadly, not to mention their fast RM collection which enables them to spawn more units faster than any other race.

Well Auron when we had 2v2 game where i had the ai as my ally. U spawned jets which i countered with ease with lost ones then u went with FIs wich was very scary for me since i only had lost ones and few brutes who mainly acted as a defence role againts your mira. The only thing that saved me was vis-ops and you allowed me to use my heroes to the best of my abilities. Thats why your herds of FIs failed 3 times only to my heroes. Allthough it was 2v2 it was kind of 1v1 your ally dint kill me off when he had the chance and my Ai kept you busy. A really fun game though  

Ps. I might have the wrong Auron if so sorry.

Edited by volcaniclostone, 15 April 2010 - 04:11 PM.

[Purified]

The thing about N is that they indeed have production that is much better than the rest of the factions, and even a horde of their lower tier units holds well on it's own for a while. Plus their high tier units are very easy to reach, so easy it's entirely viable to do a tech rush for them on some maps.

Meanwhile hackers are quite strong when they manage to lock-down most of an army. As far as brutes go, there is no need to make hackers against H, as they lack enough vehicles to make it worth it.    Meanwhile brute DFA can be easily dealt with by just spreading the FIs out in a line. (same with against kamal and charos and whatnot)

FIs are considered generalists though, and hackers just make them all the more nightmarish, bad enough your army may just get out-ranged and out gunned...it can also be completely immobilized.  

[Kelathin]

Question of countering is not the fact that something can be countered, but how cost effective is the counter?

[JAGX]

Their late game units don't really take any skill to micro.

I mean FI is just spam and shoot and hackers to their job automatically, while H reapers are so stupid they finish gathering resources in one area then just sit there...

But yea I agree, N have amazing early game units and good heroes and tech.  I'm never really afraid when I see M heroes, but N heroes are a pain lol!

[vOdToasT]

Novus is the easiest on a low level. If two newbies play vs each other, the Novus player will almost always win, like Protoss in StarCraft. This is because their economy is the easiest to manage, since there are no complex build orders like Masari, and no apm requiered to micro and multitask your reaper drones - just throw down your recycling centers in the optimal locations... meanwhile the Hierarchy has to multitask three reaper drones at the same time to go for all the lights and poles. So if both players just mass a bunch of units and attack each other, the Novus will win.

However, if Masari uses a good build order (The only Masari player I have ever seen do a good build order is Vaccinium, unfortunately...) and if Hierarchy actually uses three reaper drones at the same time to their full potential, no, Novus is not overpowered.

Novus is just easier, and therefor the best on low levels.

There will always be people who lose to Novus and whine that they're imba... Just like there will always be people who whine at Protoss.

This doesn't just apply to Novus, though - Hierarchy whines at Masari a lot too, which is just ridicilous.

Edited by vOdToasT, 19 April 2010 - 09:41 AM.

[volcaniclostone]

vOdToasT, on 18 April 2010 - 12:32 PM, said:

Novus is the easiest on a low level. If two newbies play vs each other, the Novus player will almost always win, like Protoss in StarCraft. This is because their economy is the easiest to manage, since there are no complex build orders like Masari, and no apm requiered to micro and multitask your reaper drones - just throw down your recycling centers in the optimal locations... meanwhile the Hierarchy has to multitask three reaper drones at the same time to go for all the lights and poles. So if both players just mass a bunch of units and attack each other, the Novus will win.

However, if Masari uses a good build order (The only Masari player I have ever seen do a good build order is Vaccinium, unfortunately...) and if Hierarchy actually uses three reaper drones at the same time to their full potential, no, Novus is not overpowered.

Novus is just easier, and therefor the best on low levels.


There will always be people who lose to Novus and whine that they're imba... Just like there will always be people who whine at Protoss.

I disagree if two newbies fight H would win cause it alot easier to use. I'm a prime example of that example. 2 years ago when i got the game with my friend, we had a lan game. Both of us did NOT read the manual so we didnt know what to expect. He was Novus and i was H. I got my first reaper out and i laughed out saying im eating people while he was saying im so fast. Then i got my Walker down and i went this is awsome, then i sent my walker to his base with an evil grin. then i heard him saying what the F@#$k is that and crushed his base. As i was crushing his base he droped a black hole on me and i was so pissed cause i lost everything but in the end i won.

So two newbies who were noobs at that time had a game and a H won, the most funny part is that the first game determent their fav. faction.

*Just had a thought* would my fav. faction be N if i would have chosen them in my first game? The laws of quantum is in play now, i guess we will never know.

[Gromij]

There is a different understanding of low level at play here.

I believe when voddy says low level, he still means to imply basic mechanical skill and understanding of RTS.

Obviously in an RTS nubfest hierarchy will have a huge advantage because if you dont know how to micro units you wont be able to beat walkers cost effectively, in addition to their units generally being the most powerful in head on fights (exception late game masari).

If we are talking about people who know RTS and are simply new to the game, I agree that Novus is much easier for the reasons voddy has stated.

I feel that the potential of this game is far from realised. With such a small community and little competition (a broken ladder doesnt count) for such a long time, there was insufficient push to optimise playstyles and advance the metagame. In order for people to get better we need to stand on others shoulders, and then pull them up along with us. No matter how good people are if there is insufficient competition their skill level will stagnate much lower than their potential.

If we keep this activity rising then the games we played yesterday will be as noobfests compared to what we do in a few months time.

Edited by Gromij, 19 April 2010 - 12:16 AM.

[Kelathin]

Gromij, on 19 April 2010 - 12:15 AM, said:

I feel that the potential of this game is far from realised. With such a small community and little competition (a broken ladder doesnt count) for such a long time, there was insufficient push to optimise playstyles and advance the metagame. In order for people to get better we need to stand on others shoulders, and then pull them up along with us. No matter how good people are if there is insufficient competition their skill level will stagnate much lower than their potential.

If we keep this activity rising then the games we played yesterday will be as noobfests compared to what we do in a few months time.

I agree with everything I didn't quoted.

However, the potential for this game being realized is an 'interesting' remark. From replays I've watched and recently playing against people, I realize the optimized play styles are still being used for the most part. For the most part, I believe every game has a horizontal asymptote regardless of players's advancement of the metagame. While players continual to "feel" they are improving competitively, the truth is they are simply approaching the asymptote and never will go beyond asymptote. Personally, I feel the horizontal asymptote itself is created by the developers subconsciously, there are a finite number of permutations possible and most garbage permutations are figured out fairly quickly by players.

Edited by Strategist, 20 April 2010 - 05:34 PM.

[Valdez]

Kel speak English.

[volcaniclostone]

I agree with Kel

[Saphri]

Kelathin, on 19 April 2010 - 12:30 PM, said:

*moronic prattle*

irregardless isnt a word, learn english.  what i do with masari is on another level.  have fun playing with your little asymptote.

[Kelathin]

Saphri, on 20 April 2010 - 04:25 PM, said:

irregardless isnt a word, learn english.  what i do with masari is on another level.  have fun playing with your little asymptote.

Learn not to be an ass? If someone like Volc can appreciate my "moronic prattle" it holds some truth to some. Learn to respect other's opinions or get off the boards.

That whole "I play on another level" is just a load of garbage, you might micro and macro better than any other player, but you are always going to be limited by the game itself. Unless you mod or cheat. I suppose metagamers are often associated with pushing the game to a limit and often finding breaking bugs.

Edited by Kelathin, 20 April 2010 - 05:17 PM.

[volcaniclostone]

Saphri, on 20 April 2010 - 04:25 PM, said:

irregardless isnt a word, learn english.  what i do with masari is on another level.  have fun playing with your little asymptote.

Kel is right. for two years i played nothing but H. I came up with so many strats so many build orders and on some certain maps without instans i managed to replecate the RM intake of novus.
I pushed H to its breaking point. I soon reliazed i couldnt do much more and as nicely as kel put i was limited by the game. You cant take the game or faction to another level i know i tryed. If you think you can thats fine by me BUT you will always lose to a player whos got better micro and macro than you.

[vOdToasT]

StarCraft is still evolving today. Why does it continue to evolve? Because while the most optimal ways to get lots of money and resources out as fast as possible have been found out, counter strategies will never stop being invented.

Someone comes up with a counter build to the standard build. Then someone comes up with a counter build to the counter build. Then someone comes up with a counter to that build, and so on. Complex games like StarCraft aren't " figured out ", and neither is Universe at War.

Not only this, but when a new counter strategy is invented, the way to get as much money and as many units as fast as possible without dying has to change, too. And if you want to play an aggressive style, the best way to get a rush out changes, too. As soon as someone comes up with a counter to something (wether that is a counter to a counter, or a counter to a standard build order) EVERYTHING changes, and it takes time for these changes to occur because they have to be invented. It used to be safe to expand off one gateway in StarCraft, but then a guy named Flash came up with a counter to it, so now everyone does 1 gate robotics facility exapnd with a reaver to hold off Flash's counter, and so Terrans have invented a counter to THAT counter.

Universe at War is not figured out and won't be figured out for many years to come - it just seems like it's stagnated because it's never been played competitively at a high level, because the game died in its infant stages.

@ Volcanic, you will not always lose to someone who has better micro and macro. A player can have awesome mechanics but be a dumbass and lose because his opponent thinks better. You will NOT always lose to players who have better micro and macro, that is pure bullshit. So what if my units are better and more numerous? If you out think me I will still lose, because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time... or because I didn't even get them out in time.

Having 500 apm and perfect macro doesn't make you smart, and in fact doesn't even make you very succesful if you can't think. Vs good players with just DECENT macro you will lose, if they can think.

And Volcanic, you haven't pushed Hierarchy to its limit... Your play is oftentimes just plain wrong, which is why you think Novus is OP. You lose to them because you play incorrectly... and instead of figuring out what you did wrong and improve yourself, you just say that it's imbalance that made you lose.

Edited by vOdToasT, 20 April 2010 - 06:03 PM.

[volcaniclostone]

vOdToasT, on 20 April 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

StarCraft is still evolving today. Why does it continue to evolve? Because while the most optimal ways to get lots of money and resources out as fast as possible have been found out, counter strategies will never stop being invented.

Someone comes up with a counter build to the standard build. Then someone comes up with a counter build to the counter build. Then someone comes up with a counter to that build, and so on. Complex games like StarCraft aren't " figured out ", and neither is Universe at War.

Not only this, but when a new counter strategy is invented, the way to get as much money and as many units as fast as possible without dying has to change, too. And if you want to play an aggressive style, the best way to get a rush out changes, too. As soon as someone comes up with a counter to something (wether that is a counter to a counter, or a counter to a standard build order) EVERYTHING changes, and it takes time for these changes to occur because they have to be invented. It used to be safe to expand off one gateway in StarCraft, but then a guy named Flash came up with a counter to it, so now everyone does 1 gate robotics facility exapnd with a reaver to hold off Flash's counter, and so Terrans have invented a counter to THAT counter.

Universe at War is not figured out and won't be figured out for many years to come - it just seems like it's stagnated because it's never been played competitively at a high level, because the game died in its infant stages.

You cant compare SC to UAW, Sc had more patches to smooth the game up. UAW only had 3 and apperantly 4 th on the way. So all this talk is irrelavant.

vOdToasT, on 20 April 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

@ Volcanic, you will not always lose to someone who has better micro and macro. A player can have awesome mechanics but be a dumbass and lose because his opponent thinks better. You will NOT always lose to players who have better micro and macro, that is pure bullshit. So what if my units are better and more numerous? If you out think me I will still lose, because they're in the wrong place at the wrong time... or because I didn't even get them out in time.

Having 500 apm and perfect macro doesn't make you smart, and in fact doesn't even make you very succesful if you can't think. Vs good players with just DECENT macro you will lose, if they can think.

What you are saying makes no sense. I'll use you as an example You have awsome micro and macro now how come you always win. Is it becuase you arnt a dumbass and you think better than your opponent, could it be that you think the right way with your macro or is it a lot more simpler and all of your opponents are just plain stupid, because that is what you are saying.

vOdToasT, on 20 April 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

And Volcanic, you haven't pushed Hierarchy to its limit... Your play is oftentimes just plain wrong, which is why you think Novus is OP. You lose to them because you play incorrectly... and instead of figuring out what you did wrong and improve yourself, you just say that it's imbalance that made you lose.

Forgive me for not going ASS. walker againts N. Is that why PERFI lost to you in the finals in the CCup? Is his H plain wrong too? since he beat you twice in H mirrow. Or were you a better player and thats why you beat him with novus. Not to mention you had 20000 res right next to your base.How fortunate for you.

P.s maybe if they Lower the rm intake of novus and reduce the damage by FI then i would shut up but until then you will just have to put up with my whining.

Edited by volcaniclostone, 20 April 2010 - 07:33 PM.

[Kelathin]

vOdToasT, on 20 April 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

StarCraft is still evolving today. Why does it continue to evolve? Because while the most optimal ways to get lots of money and resources out as fast as possible have been found out, counter strategies will never stop being invented.

Evolution is relative is what I'm stating. Players feel they may be pushing the limit, but if you're familiar with an asymptote, you merely approach the asymptote you never go reach it. This means the evolution of the game becomes smaller and smaller, people might feel they are pushing the boundaries but to an observer, they realize hey the game isn't being radically changed. Truth is most strategies used in any game are discovered within the first few weeks of patch, and the evolving is far less and less and less as it approaches the limitation of the game.

[vOdToasT]

volcaniclostone, on 20 April 2010 - 07:31 PM, said:

You cant compare SC to UAW, Sc had more patches to smooth the game up. UAW only had 3 and apperantly 4 th on the way. So all this talk is irrelavant.





What you are saying makes no sense. I'll use you as an example You have awsome micro and macro now how come you always win. Is it becuase you arnt a dumbass and you think better than your opponent, could it be that you think the right way with your macro or is it a lot more simpler and all of your opponents are just plain stupid, because that is what you are saying.



Forgive me for not going ASS. walker againts N. Is that why PERFI lost to you in the finals in the CCup? Is his H plain wrong too? since he beat you twice in H mirrow. Or were you a better player and thats why you beat him with novus. Not to mention you had 20000 res right next to your base.How fortunate for you.

P.s maybe if they Lower the rm intake of novus and reduce the damage by FI then i would shut up but until then you will just have to put up with my whining.

Actually, StarCraft has only had a few balance patches. Most of the patches are just bug fixes. There were only about three or four actual balance patches, so I CAN compare SC to UaW.

@ Kelathin, there were HUGE break throughs that came years after StarCraft's release. Some were simply technical, like mutalisk stacking. Others were strategic, like forge fast expand in protoss vs zerg. This took Protoss vs Zerg and COMPLETELY changed how the matchup is played. Guess when this happened? 2007. You're wrong about most strategies being discovered in the first few patches. That's how it goes for games that aren't played competitively at a high level, because people just don't discover what exists there.

@ Volcanic, what I mean is that there are many factors that help you win. Mechanics (micro and macro) is one factor. Strategy is another factor. If you have really good mechanics but ^@!$ strategy you're not gonna have too much success. If you have good strategy but ^@!$ mechanics, you're not gonna win a lot either. That's what I meant. This means that just because you have better micro and macro than your opponent, you won't necessarily win. If you have better strategy than your opponent, you might not win either.

You said that someone with superior micro and macro will ALWAYS win. This is NOT true. There are more factors than micro and macro. And I know you will always whine at Novus, because you will never get good enough at playing vs Novus (because of your attitude), so to you it will always seem imbalanced.

The reason I lost two Hierarchy mirrors vs him in that tournament was because new things were invented right in then and there that I couldn't deal with. I beat him in HvH all the time, and I have even done so in previous tournaments. You can ask him and he will confirm what I say, because it's the truth.

What happened was that we played on maps with lots of instagrabs, so I figured I didn't have to do the standard saucer based strategy. I could get money so fast that I could get Nufai out really fast and just stun the saucers... then own them with Lost Ones using plasma bombs next to them.

The next game he saw what I did and improved on it, taking it to the next level. He went fast nufai and BRUTES. The brutes of course ran over my lost ones.

The third game I had no idea what to do. The matchup had changed completely from what was used to. It was unknown to me, and so I ended up doing some weird mix between normal saucer play and nufai + brute play... it sucked, obviously, as he just went standard play and rolled me over.

So then I decided to choose Novus instead, because Novus vs Hierarchy hadn't been changed. It was a matchup that I knew, and which I would be safe with, because nothing new that I wasn't used to had been introduced.

Now that I've gotten used to the new HvH (On high instagrab maps... on maps with little to no instas it's still the same old game) I'm not scared of playing it anymore, because I know the matchup. I could play a best of 5 vs WLFTL and beat him HvH, like I do when we bump into each other in automatch, and like I've done in the cups in the past.

If you don't believe me, just ask him.

Edited by vOdToasT, 20 April 2010 - 08:37 PM.