16 replies to this topic

[JAGX]

I posted a similar thread on Gamereplays, but I wanted to see some thoughts from the good forum-goers of Petro.

I find grunts to be a generally useless unit.  The are crippled by a lousy combination of traits (slow and short range, with a moderate cost).  They can't shoot air, and the weapon they use is a plasma shotgun, which further reduces the damage by their already limited range (unless you can get them face-to-face with enemy units, which never happens because they are so slow).

One of the things that makes them useful is to upgrade them with grenades, but doing so forces you to make them in significant numbers to be effective, thereby making you susceptible to the many counters available, and there are many right at the early game.

Ohms and variants outdistance them and are so fast that they can micro around them.  Figments are even better.  Blade troopers also make short work of grunts.

I just think that the idea of the grunt is a flawed concept, slow, short-ranged, and expensive.  Sure, they have decent health and can knock back infantry (which ironically lessens the effect of their shotgun and makes them chase after the unit because the stun is so short).  For just 50 RM more, Novus get a Variant which is fast and has decent range.  Furthermore, they require no upgrades and can actually be built out of a structure that has a good potential for the late game by producing FIs, whereas the habitat is obsolete unless you make brutes, and even then phase tanks are a better choice.

Your thoughts?

Edited by JAGX, 17 April 2010 - 02:28 PM.

[Strategist]

I find they work best when used defensively rather than offensively (e.g. with upgraded spitter turrets or Defilers). The first reason is that the natural AI targeting of units will generally target Grunts first rather than what they are protecting (handy if advancing on a guardian turret with a flimsy Defiler) and in a defensive position foes come to them rather than the other way around. The knock back is the most useful feature though, as it shuts off structure construction, architect powering, hacker lockdown, and capturing effects.

The biggest problem with the Habitat walker and its units is that they are more dependant on your technology research compared to the units of the Assembly Walker (Saucers only have 1 upgrade, Defilers have 2/3 Upgrades, Phase Tanks have 4, compared to the Grunt's 4, Lost One's 5, and Brute's 1). If you are using mostly the Quantom Branch, infantry won't be as useful as that branch focuses more on vehicles and walkers (with the Assembly being the iron fist of the Hierachy). The Assault branch helps infantry with firepower enhancements (plasma weaponry for basic troops, DFA for Brutes) and the visops + range enhancers turn the Habitat into the best artillery unit in the game. Mutagenics is all about infantry and radiation-using vehicles (Defiler and Monolith) with the various radiation upgrades and the radiator artillery.

Quantom: Lost Ones are the only infantry that fit with this branch thanks to the splash damage bonus for plasma (the damage is global among plasma weapons), phase moduals, and their bonus against aircraft. The Habitat can prove quite useful here provided you have supplemental research. With Assault, the Habitat is a fantastic anti-air weapon (4 archs and a mix of range enhancers and weapon accelerators), allowing the Assembly to serve as your brute force anti-ground. If you are supplimenting with Mutagenics, you'll want to use the Habitat for your crowd control walker due to the Radiator Artillery and (if you have it) Gama Radiation.

Mutagenics: Best branch for infantry due to the healing buffs. I find this is best used in a support role in most match ups and the best branch for breaking turtles. Mutagenics 3 provides a nice damage buff that stacks with Quantom 3's splash damage for plasma weaponry, so you can effectively triple your damage with those two branches. Assault provides upgrades for Brutes and Grunts (Grunts mixed with Brutes can be a good combo, as the Brute is more like a melee Defiler with extra health and armor) and Habitiat with 3 range enhancers and a Radiator Artillery is truely an artillery piece.

Assault: If you are going to use infantry, you will probably want to research into this branch as most of its damage upgrades are for infantry units (the exception being the Saucer upgrade in suite 2). As mentioned above this branch is one of the better ones for the Habitat as it becomes an ideal artillery platform to support/protect the Assembly loaded up with close range Beam Cannons and Mass Drivers.

[AlexRuiz]

I feel grunts are decent, specially early game, when the opponent might not have enough anti infantry. Yes, variants outrange them, and figments make short work of the grunts, but going with grunts is cheap, they teleport fast, and if you go on the offense fast (as you should be) they will very likely outnumber the anti infantry. Yes, they require research, but it is a tier 1, and one of the most used branches for hierarchy.

Just enroute to the enemy base, you might have 9 or 12 grunts by the time you arrive to the enemy base. Because of their cheapness, you will have money start researching. I know that short of some guardians to help, I won't have enough figments to contain them, specially if they spread as then the light mines are less effective. Novus might have a better chance, but then, if they are making anti infantry, what is going to take care of the walker behind the grunts?

Yes, if you take too long to attack and the opponent got good numbers (or nastier units, such as amps) you might as well sell the grunts and recover some money instead of suiciding them.

I am personally more afraid of grunts than I am of saucers/defilers. The key to those matchups come in the form of the lowly disciples, another infantry unit that is cheap, builds relatively fast, is great vs walker and vehicles, and excels vs air, exactly the stuff that comes from the assembly walker. They are however, simply horrid vs infantry. That means my disciples are useless in that case, forcing me to go with more expensive factories, making units twice as expensive that also take 70% longer to build, and are as fragile as the disciples (figments). If the rush is well executed, I won't have enough figments to stop the grunts. If I fight defilers / saucers, because disciples are cheap and very effective vs them, the figments become support, and I will defend better. Furthernmore, I'll be able to rush the KV to FK, totally skip conquerors and go directly for peacebringers to greet the walker when it makes it to my base

But maybe I am a lousy player who doesn't know how to contain grunts, or I have been traumatized by playing Volc and his habitat walker opening so many times

I say they range from very useful to useless, but that comes for the stage in the game, as they are extremely time dependent. Grunts vs disciples or grunts vs AMs? Grunts should win. Grunts vs blades or SLs? Sell the grunts before they get slaughtered

[JAGX]

Disciples should beat grunts.  In dark mode, they run faster + their shots slow the enemy down, making grunts even slower.  All you should have to do it shoot at the grunts while they are trying to chase you, and if you start taking damage just run away and regain DMA then go back in, cycle your units in and out.  Plus, a few figments mixed in will aid in the effort.  What really screws H and N is that dark figs disable structures (LAME).  That once mighty walker stomping towards your base and pumping out units is a lot less menacing once it's still and impotent.  And even if it does manage to get near your base (idk how tho) it'l have to stomp on MEs and blow up anyways (which is a bad resource trade off no matter how you slice it [pun intended]).

As for N, if the H player sends his walker + grunts at you, they simply send Ohms at your reapers and H loses.  Novus isn't made for head-on fights all the time, most N players don't know enough to sell their base and rebuild it elsewhere whenever a walker gets near.  In the mean time, just run around grunts if there are too many and kill the reapers.  And Ohms work wonders vs walkers too so...

This problem only gets worse on large maps, where H and their slow units have no hopes of gaining map control or early rushing the w/ walkers or grunts b/c by the time they get half way  to the enemy base, the enemy is teched up and has defenses, and not to mention they should be harassing either your units or your base or your reapers or glyphs.  You can't split your forces 3-ways and hope for any of your 1/3 army to survive.

[Strategist]

JAGX, on 17 April 2010 - 05:42 PM, said:

Disciples should beat grunts.  In dark mode, they run faster + their shots slow the enemy down, making grunts even slower.  All you should have to do it shoot at the grunts while they are trying to chase you, and if you start taking damage just run away and regain DMA then go back in, cycle your units in and out.  Plus, a few figments mixed in will aid in the effort.  What really screws H and N is that dark figs disable structures (LAME).  That once mighty walker stomping towards your base and pumping out units is a lot less menacing once it's still and impotent.  And even if it does manage to get near your base (idk how tho) it'l have to stomp on MEs and blow up anyways (which is a bad resource trade off no matter how you slice it [pun intended]).

Grunts actually do beat disciples much better than other infantry based on damage types (grunt has a 65% bonus against Masari infantry compared to the 50% bonus it gets against non-masari infantry) and have they have the bonus of being fairly resistant to Guardian fire (particuarly compared to the walker). As you said, they can be slowed down, but if the Masari player is spreading his fire he will not do much damage as he would if he was focusing fire (on the flip side, if he focuses fire the rest of the Grunts can charge forward at normal speeds while one is slowed). Dark figments are a major pain, though Grunts can actually beat them if they have their plasma grendades and a monolith to detect for them. Light mode is more painful for infantry though, particuarly with burning brilliance researched.

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As for N, if the H player sends his walker + grunts at you, they simply send Ohms at your reapers and H loses.  Novus isn't made for head-on fights all the time, most N players don't know enough to sell their base and rebuild it elsewhere whenever a walker gets near.  In the mean time, just run around grunts if there are too many and kill the reapers.  And Ohms work wonders vs walkers too so...

I do somewhat agree here. Grunts are not as good against Novus (they mainly counter anti-vehicle vehicles and turrets based on what I have found) but a few doesn't hurt to deal with Hackers if you happen to have a Habitat Walker anyway (not impossible, given that Brutes are the best unit-based counter the Hierarchy has to FIs and one may want Lost Ones for their bombing abilities).

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This problem only gets worse on large maps, where H and their slow units have no hopes of gaining map control or early rushing the w/ walkers or grunts b/c by the time they get half way  to the enemy base, the enemy is teched up and has defenses, and not to mention they should be harassing either your units or your base or your reapers or glyphs.  You can't split your forces 3-ways and hope for any of your 1/3 army to survive.

I disagree on map control, I think that's one of the Hierarchy's strong spots with their very good turrets (which build fairly quickly compared to the other factions), rapid repair/healing abilities, and the ability to bring their production to the front lines. Their weakness is that all their units (including grunts) are designed to work with other units rather than function on their own (take Defilers, while powerful they have absolutely no durability so they need either Saucers to heal them or something to draw fire from them), so they must spend more resources for similar effectiveness.

[JAGX]

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 06:49 PM, said:

Grunts actually do beat disciples much better than other infantry based on damage types (grunt has a 65% bonus against Masari infantry compared to the 50% bonus it gets against non-masari infantry) and have they have the bonus of being fairly resistant to Guardian fire (particuarly compared to the walker). As you said, they can be slowed down, but if the Masari player is spreading his fire he will not do much damage as he would if he was focusing fire (on the flip side, if he focuses fire the rest of the Grunts can charge forward at normal speeds while one is slowed). Dark figments are a major pain, though Grunts can actually beat them if they have their plasma grendades and a monolith to detect for them. Light mode is more painful for infantry though, particuarly with burning brilliance researched.


I disagree on map control, I think that's one of the Hierarchy's strong spots with their very good turrets (which build fairly quickly compared to the other factions), rapid repair/healing abilities, and the ability to bring their production to the front lines. Their weakness is that all their units (including grunts) are designed to work with other units rather than function on their own (take Defilers, while powerful they have absolutely no durability so they need either Saucers to heal them or something to draw fire from them), so they must spend more resources for similar effectiveness.

Yea I agree that grunts are good vs hackers, although I doubt the enemy will build many hackers if your focus is on Habitat units.  And mixing units for the H is extremely costly, simply because another 2K walker + research is a big commitment to make, especially if you need that money for other things immediately demanding attention.  And during the early game, H can't really spare that, even though they have no generalists like the other factions do.  I don't like how H units, in order to be effective, are dependent both on Tech AND other units to such a high degree, all the while requiring two different and costly productions structures.  I mean yea sure, I can make 3x units at once, but they are all the same and therefore easier to anticipate/counter.

As for map control, I just don't see it that way.  The H has the most vulnerable economy because reapers need to go out into the field while N and M can sit back.  On top of that, it isn't cost effective at all to leap-frog with spitter/grav turrets, because there typically isn't just one giant resource pile to guard, there are usually several smaller, far-flung things that need protecting.  And the fragility of glyphs doesn't help, and lone variants or figs just run in and out hitting turret/walker glyphs.

Even that doesn't bother me as much as the fact that all H units are slow, with few exceptions.  After the nerf, now defilers are slow, flimsy, and cannot shoot while walking.  Granted, they were too good pre-patch, but now I rarely use them.  Same goes for grunts, very slow and short range doesn't make for good map control.  And while lost ones are fast, they die easily to vehicles.  Furthermore, Habitat units like grunts, really aren't good later on in the game, whereas Ohms and figments still serve purposes, while variants are good vs heroes and AMs are replaced by FI.  So I go to research and build a significant number of grunts, and then by the time I make them, tech them, crawl them to the enemy base, they are obsolete vs tanks' focus fire, anti-infantry, or air units lol.  At least N patches apply to all units, and same goes for M light/dark tech.

It's kinda good to have units at the front, but N and M do just fine w/o it.  It also makes production walkers easy targets, as they are farther from your turrets.  Then you need to make extra defense at your base to make up for the walker(s) you sent away (which I like to use a defense early on).  IDK I try to have map control with H, but it seems like the enemy could easily walk around or destroy my one or two turrets at my new expansion if they really wanted to.  I don't see how the H can be covering the map with slow, expensive, and relatively few hi-pip cap units.

Oh, and I've never really seen to many battles between brutes and FIs, they do well?  Mine usually fall to blades...

Edited by JAGX, 17 April 2010 - 08:13 PM.

[Strategist]

JAGX, on 17 April 2010 - 08:06 PM, said:

And mixing units for the H is extremely costly, simply because another 2K walker + research is a big commitment to make, especially if you need that money for other things immediately demanding attention.

  

I agree, but as far as I can tell they seem to be designed to encurage mixing units based on all the games I have played with them. Even their walkers need to have some units mixed in to escort them and cover against things they are not armed to handle.

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And during the early game, H can't really spare that, even though they have no generalists like the other factions do.

  

Actually, I'd say Saucers are the closest thing the Hierarchy has to a generalist as they excell against vehicles, structures, walkers without arch turrets, and are somewhat effective against aircraft. They still need support to deal with basic infantry early game, but the fact that they have repair helps.

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I don't like how H units, in order to be effective, are dependent both on Tech AND other units to such a high degree

That's how they seem to have been designed though, practically no unit can function without the support of another. The tech part does make them have some of the best research options though.

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all the while requiring two different and costly productions structures.  I mean yea sure, I can make 3x units at once, but they are all the same and therefore easier to anticipate/counter.

Well, the Hierarchy only has 3 options per walker, so it goes without saying. Novus has 4 vehicle options alone while the Hierarchy has only 2 (both of which fill similar roles, though one works best with infantry and the other with walkers).

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As for map control, I just don't see it that way.  The H has the most vulnerable economy because reapers need to go out into the field while N and M can sit back.  On top of that, it isn't cost effective at all to leap-frog with spitter/grav turrets, because there typically isn't just one giant resource pile to guard, there are usually several smaller, far-flung things that need protecting.  And the fragility of glyphs doesn't help, and lone variants or figs just run in and out hitting turret/walker glyphs.

I wasn't thinking of leapfrogging. I was thinking of using walkers + escorts to form a perimeter around an enemy and construct turrets a bit behind in chokepoints (if present) or high value areas (such as the city on Pacific Southwest). Saucers can easily fly between turret nests, so repairs are more or less a non issue.

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After the nerf, now defilers are slow, flimsy, and cannot shoot while walking.  Granted, they were too good pre-patch, but now I rarely use them.

They never could shoot while moveing due to the nature of their weapon (see the Corrupter which uses the same code for its attack). As for their durability, they are now basically the same sort of unit as an Amplifier with a bit less range but with more abilities and infantry support abilities. I find they are still good if they are used in lower numbers as part of an army rather than the army itself (2-3 Defilers should be all you need if you support them well).

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Same goes for grunts, very slow and short range doesn't make for good map control.  And while lost ones are fast, they die easily to vehicles.

Like I said in the previous post, they seem to be better as defensive units (with foes coming to them) rather than offensive units.

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Furthermore, Habitat units like grunts, really aren't good later on in the game, whereas Ohms and figments still serve purposes, while variants are good vs heroes and AMs are replaced by FI.  So I go to research and build a significant number of grunts, and then by the time I make them, tech them, crawl them to the enemy base, they are obsolete vs tanks' focus fire, anti-infantry, or air units lol.

Lost Ones are still viable as anti-air (provided it isn't Sky Lords) and if you decided to do the ever-popular 3 Quantom + 3 Assault they are ideal for blowing up key structures too. I need to do some testing on how many bombs are needed to destroy structures, but I know it only takes 6 to take out a matter engine without DMA (9 if it has it) and 3-4 to take down a flow generator.  

Grunts are indeed lacking in late-game, though they still can provide fair anti-structure power if you have their grenades (each one seems to do at least 2/3rds the damage of a Lost One plasma bomb but with a shorter cooldown) and can get them into the enemy base (perhaps Zessus would be of use here...).

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Oh, and I've never really seen to many battles between brutes and FIs, they do well?  Mine usually fall to blades...

I'm still testing Brutes effectiveness against Field Inverters but thus far I have seen promise.  First, they are cheaper than FIs (850 versus 1000 or 680 versus 750 with cost reductions), their armor type is less vulnerable to the FI rail gun than Phase Tanks, Defilers, or Saucers, they have much more health than other Hierarchy infantry (650 if I remember right), have innate health regen (1hp per second), and apparently gain a damage bonus when in radiation. Furthermore, once you have Death From Above they are almost imblanced with the damage they can do. A 9-brute death from above bombardment will kill any unit short of a DMA Peacebringer or a walker and will also critically damage (if not destroy) even Murde-*cough* Mirabel.

The main downside is that they actually have hard counters (Blades, Figs, Vars), require research and a fairly research dependant walker to use them (which is probably why Phase Tanks are more popular, the Assembly will work well regardless of research while the Habitat needs Assault or Mutagen to be viable in combat).

[JAGX]

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

I agree, but as far as I can tell they seem to be designed to encurage mixing units based on all the games I have played with them. Even their walkers need to have some units mixed in to escort them and cover against things they are not armed to handle.

I know they are designed to need to mix units, but unfortunately for them it is more costly + more difficult to mix units.  Novus eco patch is general, cost optimizers are walker specific, and one the walker is dead then you gotta remake them (not that I send me production walkers to attack or anything).  I just think that the combination of being both tech- and mix- dependent is bad, especially for H.
  

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

Actually, I'd say Saucers are the closest thing the Hierarchy has to a generalist as they excell against vehicles, structures, walkers without arch turrets, and are somewhat effective against aircraft. They still need support to deal with basic infantry early game, but the fact that they have repair helps.

Yea I agree saucers are their 'generalists' but they are more easily countered than say FI or PB.  And they are, on the whole, a lot weaker.  As Kel mentioned long ago, the cost to spam FI and PB just about evens out to where the numbers you get from spending an equal amount of RM will give both players roughly a balanced army for PB vs FI, but I'm afraid saucers just aren't hearty enough generalists to be that useful.  More support with repair like you said then generalist in the N or M sense.

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

That's how they seem to have been designed though, practically no unit can function without the support of another. The tech part does make them have some of the best research options though.

I think that's particularly bad for the H though because early game mixing is not cost effective and their early game units have too many soft counters.  If the other factions were more tech and mix dependent then I wouldn't mind.  For instance, BTs ability is already useable w/o tech, whereas grunts + lost ones need to upgrade to even get the basic ability.

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

Well, the Hierarchy only has 3 options per walker, so it goes without saying. Novus has 4 vehicle options alone while the Hierarchy has only 2 (both of which fill similar roles, though one works best with infantry and the other with walkers).

That's another thing, redundancy, which is present in all factions, but H doesn't have many options as it is...

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

I wasn't thinking of leapfrogging. I was thinking of using walkers + escorts to form a perimeter around an enemy and construct turrets a bit behind in chokepoints (if present) or high value areas (such as the city on Pacific Southwest). Saucers can easily fly between turret nests, so repairs are more or less a non issue.

Well that may be good to set-up a siege outside the enemy perimter (provided you can get a walker there), but that in no way is a sign of map control.  You can only have so many walkers at once, and they are so slow anyways.  You're reapers will  be vulnerable most of the time, at leas that's how I feel.  I can get a turret or two, could always put a few grunts there, but I don't feel that would be adequate.  My outposts usually serve to stall the enemy before I can run phase tanks in, at least with those I can move around the map, whereas most H units are so slow you just have to send them right at the enemy base.

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

They never could shoot while moveing due to the nature of their weapon (see the Corrupter which uses the same code for its attack). As for their durability, they are now basically the same sort of unit as an Amplifier with a bit less range but with more abilities and infantry support abilities. I find they are still good if they are used in lower numbers as part of an army rather than the army itself (2-3 Defilers should be all you need if you support them well).

Yea I know they couldn't but they should be able to (or other units like FI or w/e shouldn't).  They are slow and flimsy with less range and a similar cost to FI, why should they be so much weaker (besides the upgrades required to get FI).  I mean, I can rarely justify building a defiler pod once I have an assembly walker, b/c tanks would be coming, or in H mirror, saucers.

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

Like I said in the previous post, they seem to be better as defensive units (with foes coming to them) rather than offensive units.

That's perhaps true, but any H player on the defensive against either H or M is going to lose, and if you put your starting units (Habitat>grunts) on defense, then you're screwed.  'Assault' branch for defense just sounds wrong.

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

I'm still testing Brutes effectiveness against Field Inverters but thus far I have seen promise.  First, they are cheaper than FIs (850 versus 1000 or 680 versus 750 with cost reductions), their armor type is less vulnerable to the FI rail gun than Phase Tanks, Defilers, or Saucers, they have much more health than other Hierarchy infantry (650 if I remember right), have innate health regen (1hp per second), and apparently gain a damage bonus when in radiation. Furthermore, once you have Death From Above they are almost imblanced with the damage they can do. A 9-brute death from above bombardment will kill any unit short of a DMA Peacebringer or a walker and will also critically damage (if not destroy) even Murde-*cough* Mirabel.

Huh, I thought that with a scout out in front, the FI range should be able to focus fire kill many of the brutes before too much damage is done (waiting for all 9 brutes to jump and animate will take a few seconds too).

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

The main downside is that they actually have hard counters (Blades, Figs, Vars), require research and a fairly research dependant walker to use them (which is probably why Phase Tanks are more popular, the Assembly will work well regardless of research while the Habitat needs Assault or Mutagen to be viable in combat).

I suppose that is more my point.  Maybe they are not totally useless, but if I need to tech twice, I'd rather go with phase tanks than grunts or lost ones supported by defilers.  That's just me.

[AlexRuiz]

JAGX, on 17 April 2010 - 05:42 PM, said:

Disciples should beat grunts.  In dark mode, they run faster + their shots slow the enemy down, making grunts even slower... Plus, a few figments mixed in will aid in the effort....

Next time you are online, we can make the experiment, but sorry Jagx, you are wrong here
All the units have a base damage, as Strat already pointed out, but to adjust against specific armors, they have the damage modifier, something you are overlooking here. The damage modifier of grunts vs disciples is in favor of the grunts, and is even more one sided as the disciples damage modifier vs infantry is awful.

I can tell you by memory that a disciple shot in light mode has base damage of 30 (or a voley of 3 shots in dark mode with a base damage of 10 each) The damage modifier is 1.39 vs walkers, 1.45 vs vehicles and almost 2 vs air. In contrast, the damage modifier vs infantry is like 0.45.... as you can see, a disciple shoot will cause almost 45 damage to a vehicle or even 60 to a saucer or dervish, but only 13 to a grunt. Yes, you can outrange the grunts, but if you have the disciples against the grunts, who is going to kill the walker behind the grunts?

Petro made it that way (too much in my opinion, disciples overpower any air short of sky lords, and lack punch to kill ohms...) but oh well, that is how it is right now. Disciples almost match the armor killing firepower of conquerors (even exceed it popcap to popcap) They are great vs assembly opening. In fact, short of 2 recent games where Strat executed beautifully, I cannot remember the last time I lost to a hierarchy that went assembly instead of habitat first. Even so, he got some help (maps for one), and I was still able to rush peacebringers in enough amounts to give him a scare

As far "as few figments for support" How many? 4, 5? Unless the map helps you, you won't have 5 figments by the time the grunts are in base. 2 or 3 will work only and only if you already have dark 2 research, the grunts are clumped together and you are in light mode. Remember, the grunts are time dependent, and the faster you can get them to the opponents base the better. If you are going to wait until you have like 20 of them to attack me, you better sell them to recover some money... because by then I will have "the few figments needed" and dark 2 research

[AlexRuiz]

Strategist, on 17 April 2010 - 11:39 PM, said:

I'm still testing Brutes effectiveness against Field Inverters but thus far I have seen promise.  First, they are cheaper than FIs (850 versus 1000 or 680 versus 750 with cost reductions), their armor type is less vulnerable to the FI rail gun than Phase Tanks, Defilers, or Saucers, they have much more health than other Hierarchy infantry (650 if I remember right), have innate health regen (1hp per second), and apparently gain a damage bonus when in radiation. Furthermore, once you have Death From Above they are almost imblanced with the damage they can do. A 9-brute death from above bombardment will kill any unit short of a DMA Peacebringer or a walker and will also critically damage (if not destroy) even Murde-*cough* Mirabel.

I also think that brutes with a rad artillery + 3 range enhancers habitat walker (assault 2 and mutagen 3) are the best counter vs the FI spam (mach mag walkers probably work equally as good) If you can add Nufai even better. The gamma radiator will hurt the inverters and heal the brutes faster. Yes, the inverters will kill a few brutes, but because brutes are so tough and self healing, a bunch of them will land on the inverters. Brutes also have the advantage that hackers and virus are non factor (ohms and hackers than can wreck tanks are a waste of money vs brutes, as they are not affected by virus or lockdown and can crush the light infantry)

Same goes against peacebringer spam, this is probably the best counter hierarchy has.

[JAGX]

AlexRuiz, on 18 April 2010 - 10:32 AM, said:

Next time you are online, we can make the experiment, but sorry Jagx, you are wrong here
All the units have a base damage, as Strat already pointed out, but to adjust against specific armors, they have the damage modifier, something you are overlooking here. The damage modifier of grunts vs disciples is in favor of the grunts, and is even more one sided as the disciples damage modifier vs infantry is awful.

I can tell you by memory that a disciple shot in light mode has base damage of 30 (or a voley of 3 shots in dark mode with a base damage of 10 each) The damage modifier is 1.39 vs walkers, 1.45 vs vehicles and almost 2 vs air. In contrast, the damage modifier vs infantry is like 0.45.... as you can see, a disciple shoot will cause almost 45 damage to a vehicle or even 60 to a saucer or dervish, but only 13 to a grunt. Yes, you can outrange the grunts, but if you have the disciples against the grunts, who is going to kill the walker behind the grunts?

Petro made it that way (too much in my opinion, disciples overpower any air short of sky lords, and lack punch to kill ohms...) but oh well, that is how it is right now. Disciples almost match the armor killing firepower of conquerors (even exceed it popcap to popcap) They are great vs assembly opening. In fact, short of 2 recent games where Strat executed beautifully, I cannot remember the last time I lost to a hierarchy that went assembly instead of habitat first. Even so, he got some help (maps for one), and I was still able to rush peacebringers in enough amounts to give him a scare

As far "as few figments for support" How many? 4, 5? Unless the map helps you, you won't have 5 figments by the time the grunts are in base. 2 or 3 will work only and only if you already have dark 2 research, the grunts are clumped together and you are in light mode. Remember, the grunts are time dependent, and the faster you can get them to the opponents base the better. If you are going to wait until you have like 20 of them to attack me, you better sell them to recover some money... because by then I will have "the few figments needed" and dark 2 research

Yea I guess then disc are better 1v1 in that context.  But I open Assembly every time and usually win, must mean I execute those games beautifully?  

But I still see that grunts are very slow in many instances, to slow to make it before figments, and not good enough to counter the one or two turrets before figments are there.  But I find that they are worse against N, who have an easier time getting anti-infantry units even on smaller maps.

Again, I'm going to have to say this is a map-dependent balance issue, but in terms of size.  Small maps--grunts work.  Large maps--grunts fail.  Medium maps--?? Gotta see, testing anyone?  Also have to factor in instagrabs in terms of map balance.

Edited by JAGX, 18 April 2010 - 11:50 AM.

[Kelathin]

[quote name='Strategist' date='18 April 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1271565556' post='260762']
Actually, I'd say Saucers are the closest thing the Hierarchy has to a generalist as they excell against vehicles, structures, walkers without arch turrets, and are somewhat effective against aircraft. They still need support to deal with basic infantry early game, but the fact that they have repair helps.
[quote]
Hence the problems of saucer spam in patch 1. Generalist = Bad

[quote name='Strategist' date='18 April 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1271565556' post='260762']
That's how they seem to have been designed though, practically no unit can function without the support of another. The tech part does make them have some of the best research options though.
[/quote]
Personally, I see that as part of the flaw with Hierarchy. Typically in most games and most factions, the early game is defined by a select number of structures and typically focus on one main unit. Aka, Conqueror Rush, Inquisitor Rush, Variant Rush. From that evolves where players start building multiple units, normally. However Hierarchy presents a difficult challenge. Hierarchy units are terribly expensive, particularly the walker. Most normal people's builds include 3-4 reapers and a walker to start. This means once a player chooses a walker in the early game, they naturally must follow through. The difficulty lies in the vulnerability of the walker. One must upgrade a walker. However upon upgrading the walker it becomes a significant economic investment no matter what route has been chosen, assault, production, support. Coupled with the fairly poor ability to adapt to enemy strategies due to the economic investment and production of a second walker, this means Hierarchy suffers greatly.
That being said, Hierarchy units which are designed to support the walker or defensive as you remark, naturally are flawed by RTS standards as they cannot function standalone to support a rush. That being said, you can force a walker to march towards an enemy however that is putting a significant economic investment on the line. This however is very  dangerous on a 1v1 level.
Hierarchy suffers from all their eggs being in one basket.

[quote name='Strategist' date='18 April 2010 - 12:39 AM' timestamp='1271565556' post='260762']
Well, the Hierarchy only has 3 options per walker, so it goes without saying. Novus has 4 vehicle options alone while the Hierarchy has only 2 (both of which fill similar roles, though one works best with infantry and the other with walkers).
[/quote]
Um technically, novus only has 3, as you must upgrade each vehicle assembly so you can only produce 3 per individual factory.

[Valdez]

Kelathin, on 18 April 2010 - 12:40 PM, said:

Um technically, novus only has 3, as you must upgrade each vehicle assembly so you can only produce 3 per individual factory.

That's negligible anyway, since you can have more than one factory, with different hardpoint upgrades. If you want to factor in prerequisites, Hierarchy's got all that research and pod hardpoint crap just so you can use Defilers and Phase Tanks.

[Kelathin]

Valdez, on 18 April 2010 - 12:50 PM, said:

That's negligible anyway, since you can have more than one factory, with different hardpoint upgrades. If you want to factor in prerequisites, Hierarchy's got all that research and pod hardpoint crap just so you can use Defilers and Phase Tanks.

Not negligible, when you are upgrading your structure it takes time away from production. Furthermore if you upgrade to Field Inverters when amplifiers would be more advantageous, you suffer.

[vOdToasT]

Kelathin, on 18 April 2010 - 05:08 PM, said:

Not negligible, when you are upgrading your structure it takes time away from production. Furthermore if you upgrade to Field Inverters when amplifiers would be more advantageous, you suffer.

Amplifiers are specialist units anyway - you don't mass them... so in almost every case you'll only have one vehicle assembly with the amplifier upgrade on it anyway.

To the op, grunts are useless if you use them like other units. They're only useful for when you're making a push vs N or M. If you have walkers outside his base shooting at him, it is in many cases a good idea to make grunts, since they'll spawn, and die, next to their enemy.

Edited by vOdToasT, 18 April 2010 - 06:43 PM.

[JAGX]

Isn't that true of practically all H units though?

[vOdToasT]

No. A few examples: Defilers are good to send out on their own against Masari in the early game, phase tanks are good to send out without walker support in many situations, and Lost Ones are to bomb flow generators while the walker is sitting back.