16 replies to this topic

[TheSaurusRex]

I've noticed some properties pertaining to the names of the characters in Tiberian Sun. For instance, General Solomon and his place in the orbital command center Philadelphia, seems to be an allegorical reference to King Solomon and the stories about his flying carpet and portable throne. Also, the title "General" is in place of "King". You can read more about it here: http://www.professor...lyingcarpet.pdf

I noticed that Michael McNeill's name had significance aswell. During the TS GDI ending he replies to Kane with the line "Your not god Kane". A reference from wikipedia that details the name "Michael" the following:

Quote

In Hebrew, Michael means "who is like God" (mi-who, ke-as or like, El-deity), which is traditionally interpreted as a rhetorical question: "Who is like God?" (which expects an answer in the negative) to imply that no one is like God. In this way, Michael is reinterpreted as a symbol of humility before God.[3]

We can also see in most paintings, frescos and statues the allegorical st. Michael battling Lucifer/Satan and thrusting either a sword or a spear at him to finish him off, just like when McNeill stabs Kane with a spear like object through his stomach in TS.

Pictures for reference:

http://www.wilsonsal..._by_raphael.jpg

http://members.cox.n...gel-michael.jpg

http://wordonfire.or...gelmichael.aspx

http://www.canterbur.../s/dsc01168.jpg

http://www.flickr.co...oft/3466034661/

http://www.britishmu...01872_001_l.jpg


Also, I read somewhere about General Gideon Raveshaw, the leader of the Black Hand in Renegade. We can read about the details of the name Gideon on wikipedia:

Quote

Gideon or Gedeon (Hebrew: גִּדְעוֹן, Modern Gid'on Tiberian Giḏʻôn), which means "Destroyer," "Mighty warrior," or "Feller (of trees)" was judge of the Hebrews. His story is recorded in chapters 6 to 8 of the Book of Judges in the Hebrew Bible. Judges 6–8. He is also named in chapter 11 of the Epistle to the Hebrews as an example of a man of faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gideon

So anyone played Renegade?

Edited by TheSaurusRex, 05 November 2011 - 10:11 AM.

[Valdez]

lol that's just biblical fluff being inserted because apparently that adds a cool factor   Halo did it too, with the "Ark" and the "Flood".

[Piglet]

Yeah... The entire C&C franchise has been built around biblical characters and references. This made it quite awesome to be honest.



Might I add:

I think it's quite awesome that the C&C franchise, and especially TD and TS has a following that digs deeper into the plot this very day.

Edited by Piglet, 05 November 2011 - 12:10 PM.

[TheSaurusRex]

Valdez, on 05 November 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

lol that's just biblical fluff being inserted because apparently that adds a cool factor   Halo did it too, with the "Ark" and the "Flood".

Halo actually went even further with this idea, taking many verses to serve as a base skeleton for much of the events in the games. Btw, the word "Flood" is mentioned more then once in the new testament even.

You can see a whole index of religious references to events and concepts in the Halo games at the following link if anyone's interested:
http://halo.wikia.co...eligion_in_Halo

Edited by TheSaurusRex, 05 November 2011 - 12:45 PM.

[Cheeseinator]

Interesting, but not that remarkable, it's a pretty normal thing. Pretty much all of westerndom is built off of biblical + classical themes. So it's really no surprise to see elements of these things pop in games, movies, music, and literature are already saturated in the themes of this stuff.

[Valdez]

Cheeseinator, on 06 November 2011 - 01:13 AM, said:

Interesting, but not that remarkable, it's a pretty normal thing.

^ that

In fact using biblical references is actually kinda cliche. Any more biblical and you might as well name the protagonist "Jesus"

lol wait a minute I'm playing BF3 now and the antagonist is some "Solomon" guy. Should I be expecting to face off against him in his flying carpet and portable throne in a final epic boss battle?

Edited by Valdez, 06 November 2011 - 02:39 PM.

[Piglet]

you are not that far of the truth, Valdez.

[TheSaurusRex]

Regarding Kane, I'm going to refer to a few well familiar bible passages in the book of Genesis:

"But the Lord said to him, "Therefore, if anyone kills Cain he will be avenged seven times." Then the Lord put a sign on Cain so that anyone finding him would not strike him. So Cain went out from the presence of the Lord; and he lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden."

A scorpion's stinger is a means of "protection", and it makes sense in my oppinion that the Nod symbol would be referring to the aforementioned passages.



To further compare fictional characteristics within WW games, here is a bio page of the Ordos faction from Dune 2:

http://www.euronet.n...dune2/ordos.htm

Well the Ordos being very deceptive and cunning, has a snake emblem in all of the WW Dune games. Well the snake obviously brings up the story of the serpent in the garden of Eden that deceived Eve and Adam, an obvious nod to the nature of the snake. I don't think Ordos was really mentioned in the Dune books much(well I haven't read them, only come so far as about the first 100 pages of the first book), if at all, but because of their nature as being secretive, you can neither prove or disprove their existence. Actually the way Westwood went about with Ordos in the Dune games is similar to how they created the Zann Consortium in EAW.

Edited by TheSaurusRex, 12 November 2011 - 08:06 PM.

[Piglet]

Ordos never are mentioned in the books, they are a westwoodian creation.

[TheSaurusRex]

Piglet, on 13 November 2011 - 05:31 AM, said:

Ordos never are mentioned in the books, they are a westwoodian creation.

So I've heard.

And the Zann Consortium is a Petroglyph creation.

[Cheeseinator]

TheSaurusRex, on 12 November 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

Regarding Kane, I'm going to refer to a few well familiar bible passages in the book of Genesis:

"But the Lord said to him, "Therefore, if anyone kills Cain he will be avenged seven times." Then the Lord put a sign on Cain so that anyone finding him would not strike him. So Cain went out from the presence of the Lord; and he lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden."

A scorpion's stinger is a means of "protection", and it makes sense in my oppinion that the Nod symbol would be referring to the aforementioned passages.

Eh.... That's quite a stretch. I think they picked a scorpion because they are badass scary bugs. A scorpion's stinger is not really an obvious symbol of protection, if that were the case then they would have more likely gone with a turtle shell, or snail shell, or something. And let's be honest here, turtles and snails aren't nearly as badass or scary as scorpions are they?  

TheSaurusRex, on 12 November 2011 - 04:50 PM, said:

Well the Ordos being very deceptive and cunning, has a snake emblem in all of the WW Dune games. Well the snake obviously brings up the story of the serpent in the garden of Eden that deceived Eve and Adam, an obvious nod to the nature of the snake. I don't think Ordos was really mentioned in the Dune books much(well I haven't read them, only come so far as about the first 100 pages of the first book), if at all, but because of their nature as being secretive, you can neither prove or disprove their existence. Actually the way Westwood went about with Ordos in the Dune games is similar to how they created the Zann Consortium in EAW.

Sure, the usage of snakes of symbols as deception and whatnot are pretty old, and common. Though I think it's kind of a retarded concept, there's not anything especially deceptive or secretive about snakes, nor more so than any other animal. That whole concept just comes from the biblical theme, just on instance and snakes are forever thought of as deceptive and sneaky. It's just like the 'rabbits really like carrots' idea. Rabbits don't really like carrots that much, its all because of Bugs Bunny that we have this idea that rabbits really like carrots. I believe that it originally came from a cameo appearance or something. Previous to the cartoon there was some famous actor that behaved just like bugs bunny and in some famous scene was gnawing on a carrot, bugs was a play on that scene, and to this day we think that rabbits really like carrots because of that.

Also I think that the Zann Consortium in FoC was based on Prince Xizor from the EU. If I recall correctly.

[Valdez]

Cheeseinator, on 14 November 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

And let's be honest here, turtles and snails aren't nearly as badass or scary as scorpions are they?

[Cheeseinator]

psshhhh, you just wait till Teenage Mutant Ninja Scorpions comes out...

[Thunder]

I always hated that biblical stuff in C&C. Especially the concept that Kane was supposed to be the biblical Cain.

[Piglet]

Why? I found it rather intrigueing, the whole point behind Kane saying he might be Cain or the possibility of him being an alien or whatever.

[Thunder]

If Kane was actually Cain, it would essentially mean that all of the bible and christianity would be true and it would mean that all other beliefs or lack thereof would be rendered false. It would be like saying "In the Command & Conquer universe christianity is true and there is no room for any other beliefs here". As a non-christian I don't like that, I don't want christianity as truth in my games. I don't mind Kane being a supernatural entity, I'm not an atheist, but I don't need this christian version of godly/supernatural/spiritual etc stuff. I wouldn't mind being an alien either.

That's my take on it.

[Valdez]

Thunder, on 03 December 2011 - 02:25 AM, said:

If Kane was actually Cain, it would essentially mean that all of the bible and christianity would be true and it would mean that all other beliefs or lack thereof would be rendered false.

Nah the bible is probably more like accounts of stuff that happened. The bible after all was authored by various people, and thus its historical accuracy is not absolute and irrefutable.

If anything, if Kane was actually Cain, it simply means there was such a guy called Cain, and that such a guy was mentioned in the book called the bible. That doesn't mean the rest of the bible is automatically cold hard fact. In fact if it was, then the Qu'ran would be cold hard fact too, since the sons of Adam and Eve were mentioned there too. And then we'd end up with a nice mess because the bible and Qu'ran do have conflicting accounts of certain things like whether Jesus was the son of God.

Edited by Valdez, 03 December 2011 - 03:06 AM.