[TheDude]

Before I begin, there will be no insulting, flaming, spamming, so on and so forth, and any other things that would lock this thread.

I thought of a revolutionary(or not) idea.

Earlier today, I was just laying down on my bed, my mind wandering. I began thinking about black holes, when I remembered an interesting occurence in a black hole's singularity: The laws of physics no longer apply.*

Atheists believe that 'supreme beings' cannot exist because the laws of physics determine(don't know if thats the right word) them impossble.

Now this got me thinking. If there is a place devoid of the laws of physics, then could God** exist?

I know there is the whole thing about God cannot be rationalized, but what if He can?

Also, there is the theory that we live in a multiverse, with an infinite number of realities. I have thought about God having the ability travel between these universes (universies?), and in one of these universes is Heaven and Hell(or maybe in a different dimension). And if so, there are universes that couldbe devoid of the laws of physics. Because, anything that could happen, will happen in one of these universes.

And then there is the chance that the multiverse theory is basically a bunch of bologna.

It's also possible that God lives completely out of phase with universe, only coming into phase t perform miracles.

Note that these are some thoughts of mine that I decided to share with the people here, and that I don't actually think that it's possible, well, except for that black hole stuff and God.

If people think that black hole and multiverse stuff is a bunch of hooey, then I would be happy to cite my sources. So post your thoughts, critique(I think that's the word) and such, and please mind the rules at the top

*If this always happens in a singularity, it's kind of like a law of Physics, yes?
**Of course He exists, but it's like a sort of rhetorical question.

This post has been edited by Doomtrooper45: 24 February 2007 - 10:22 PM

[SlurpeeBoy]

Well, some atheists argue that the great unlikleiness of the universe's physics being perfect is a result of multiple universes. So, if multiple universes don't exist, then God must exist. If they do, then the infinite possibilities make it that so God does exist. Heh.

[Klarin]

Both of you vastly misunderstand the situation. First, to SlurpeeBoy: the branching universe theory requires that something be physically possible. For all physically possible scenarios, there is a universe in which it occurs. No "god" involved. Moreover, your argument is flawed. Just because something is improbable doesn't mean that its occurance requires a supernatural being.

The singularity of a black hole is in every observer's future - in other words, it only ever happens in an infinite amount of time. Neither is this place "devoid" of the laws of physics. We just don't understand the appropriate laws yet, as we haven't yet determined a viable theory of quantum gravitation. In other words, we can only understand the big stuff, as far as relativistic levels of gravitation are concerned.


A useful link on the attempt to rationalize the existence of "god"

I won't say that I agree with every point in the article, but it is more or less correct, and I see no reason to repeat all the arguments when I can simply point you to them.

Klarin

[Farfalo]

Faith in a coin is different from faith in a super natural being. I'm not going to argue because I'm tired and I'll lose but I will say this, if there is a multiverse, I suppose God can exist, yet at the same time not exist.

[(DoV) Tokakeke]

In one particular universe, if the whole many-worlds thing is correct, you are a flying cat with a machine gun on your right arm and a giant earthworm on your left.

Who gives a crap if there's a God? That's even more awesome.

[HissingNewt]

What the hell is with you and flying cats, dude?

[Ghostly_Substance]

Every time you spill out your opinion someone always has to smash it -.-

For me God does exist and also since the Universe is unending (yes yes say what you want but this is my opinion). Theres no way you can stop this universe since if you did it would look like a bad paint job...from black to white and even then still not ending. Try to picture a room of a house thats black and then an apartment building hallway and such thats white thats never ending. Imagine in a room is a small section of space thats linked from one room to another until you get to the hallway and the main lounge (do note you can't leave this apartment building).

Well the only way to leave this universe/apartment building would be to go through another dimension which hasn't been confirmed yet (unless someone keeping it under wraps). Full Metal Alchemist where Edward goes through a gate and into our world during WW1 (possibly linked to their time frame in the exact second). Well yes it maybe an anime but it also makes you think (if you have a brain which most of us do) that "what if" theres another dimension or universe.

Ah crap I'm ranting better stop now.

[(DoV) Tokakeke]

Ghostly_Substance, on Feb 24 2007, 09:37 PM, said:

Every time you spill out your opinion someone always has to smash it -.-

Opinions only mean something if they're based on fact. If they're not, they're retarded.

hissingnewt13, on Feb 24 2007, 09:21 PM, said:

What the hell is with you and flying cats, dude?

A regular cat is fine too.

[Klarin]

(DoV) Tokakeke, on Feb 25 2007, 12:42 AM, said:

Opinions only mean something if they're based on fact. If they're not, they're retarded.

True, to a point. They may not be 'retarded', but they would be wrong.

Incidentally, G_S, if the universe existed for an infinite amount of time, it would decay into nothingness. Certainly, we already know that it has only existed for a finite amount of time, though its future is uncertain. Yes, it is fully possible that there are "alternate universes" - those which have diverged from our own... but there is no proof for this theory at the moment.

Klarin

[Ghostly_Substance]

*seriously wants to kill tok for being a prick*

@ Klarin: Well it could but we haven't necessarily measured it properly to actually find out and what if space never aged, never began and never ends. Its really impossible to bring something into nothing and turn it into something so something has to get it into this time & space. Hmm well yes I could be wrong compared to science who tell their point of view and their research but could also be wrong for a couple reasons.

I'll just let you guys talk it out while I go kill Tok with a baseball bat.

[Klarin]

Actually, that's inaccurate. We know from the Second Law of Thermodynamics that the universe hasn't existed forever. This is corroborated by evidence indicating the expansion of the universe, among other things. We further know that it would decay into... well, nothing... eventually, assuming that it doesn't swallow itself in its own gravitation. Furthermore, while it may be impossible for such a universe to simply "occur" in classical mechanics, quantum mechanics is somewhat different, and does allow for the formation of universes from what you would call nothing. Still more reason to reject the existence of an unnecessary "creator," which is far more difficult - that is to say, impossible - to explain the origin of.

Klarin

[TheDude]

Klarin, on Feb 25 2007, 02:20 AM, said:

Actually, that's inaccurate. We know from the Second Law of Thermodynamics that the universe hasn't existed forever. This is corroborated by evidence indicating the expansion of the universe, among other things. We further know that it would decay into... well, nothing... eventually, assuming that it doesn't swallow itself in its own gravitation. Furthermore, while it may be impossible for such a universe to simply "occur" in classical mechanics, quantum mechanics is somewhat different, and does allow for the formation of universes from what you would call nothing. Still more reason to reject the existence of an unnecessary "creator," which is far more difficult - that is to say, impossible - to explain the origin of.

Klarin

Ah yes, entropy. But Klarin, please enlighten us about these "quantum mechanics" that allows something to come out of nothing, which basically defies the law of conservation of mass and energy.

[SlurpeeBoy]

Klarin, on Feb 24 2007, 09:36 PM, said:

Just because something is improbable doesn't mean that its occurance requires a supernatural being.

While that may be true, the improbabilities are too great. Winning the galactic lottery while being devoured by a shark that's been struck by lightning three times is more likley to happen than the universe to come out exactly as it is. Any rational person would have to go out of their way to argue that the universe created itself out of nothing. It violates the laws of physics, but then again, every single argument here requires that.

EDIT: Why do people make these threads, anyway? They just lead to fights, no matter what. They should make a rule about this.

This post has been edited by SlurpeeBoy: 25 February 2007 - 02:09 PM

[Stargazer]

also stating the rules right at the beginning of the thread seems ignorant...

what? don't we know the rules of the board yet?

[Klarin]

Quantum mechanics is... odd. As long as the law of conservation of energy - note that there is no law about the conservation of mass, just that of energy (which does include mass-energy) - is maintained, it's fine. In fact, the so-called "vacuum" is filled with particles which spontaneously come into existence and annihilate each other. The universe could very well be a vacuum fluctuation, with a total energy of zero, which does obey the conservation laws. After all, gravity is really just negative energy (in relativity, anyway), and matter and any energy it might possess is positive energy. As long as the two are equal, the total energy is zero, and thus the universe can exist like that.

To SlurpeeBoy: no, they aren't. However improbable something is, it can still happen. Just because something is improbable doesn't mean that it won't happen - the mere fact that we're here is proof that a universe viable for life can and does exist. And besides, why is it necessarily so that the universe has a small probability of being life-supporting? For all you know, all universes are life-supporting, and they all form from nothing and go to nothing.

Most people's understanding of the laws of physics is very limited. They should avoid dabbling in something which they don't know, just as they wouldn't stick their hand in a mess of wires without some training in electrical systems. Particularly so until they realize that the nature of the actual (read: quantum) universe is beyond standard logic, and cannot be truly comprehended outside of mathematics.

Klarin

[HissingNewt]

Klarin, on Feb 25 2007, 02:56 PM, said:

just as they wouldn't stick their hand in a mess of wires without some training in electrical systems.

I get what you're saying, but there are a lot of stupid people out there who don't know better.